Tag Archives: hackerone

cURL and libcurl, Security

The I in LLM stands for intelligence

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I have held back on writing anything about AI or how we (not) use AI for development in the curl factory. Now I can’t hold back anymore. Let me show you the most significant effect of AI on curl as of today – with examples.

Bug Bounty

Having a bug bounty means that we offer real money in rewards to hackers who report security problems. The chance of money attracts a certain amount of “luck seekers”. People who basically just grep for patterns in the source code or maybe at best run some basic security scanners, and then report their findings without any further analysis in the hope that they can get a few bucks in reward money.

We have run the bounty for a few years by now, and the rate of rubbish reports has never been a big problem. Also, the rubbish reports have typically also been very easy and quick to detect and discard. They have rarely caused any real problems or wasted our time much. A little like the most stupid spam emails.

Our bug bounty has resulted in over 70,000 USD paid in rewards so far. We have received 415 vulnerability reports. Out of those, 64 were ultimately confirmed security problems. 77 of the report were informative, meaning they typically were bugs or similar. Making 66% of the reports neither a security issue nor a normal bug.

Better crap is worse

When reports are made to look better and to appear to have a point, it takes a longer time for us to research and eventually discard it. Every security report has to have a human spend time to look at it and assess what it means.

The better the crap, the longer time and the more energy we have to spend on the report until we close it. A crap report does not help the project at all. It instead takes away developer time and energy from something productive. Partly because security work is consider one of the most important areas so it tends to trump almost everything else.

A security report can take away a developer from fixing a really annoying bug. because a security issue is always more important than other bugs. If the report turned out to be crap, we did not improve security and we missed out time on fixing bugs or developing a new feature. Not to mention how it drains you on energy having to deal with rubbish.

AI generated security reports

I realize AI can do a lot of good things. As any general purpose tool it can also be used for the wrong things. I am also sure AIs can be trained and ultimately get used even for finding and reporting security problems in productive ways, but so far we have yet to find good examples of this.

Right now, users seem keen at using the current set of LLMs, throwing some curl code at them and then passing on the output as a security vulnerability report. What makes it a little harder to detect is of course that users copy and paste and include their own language as well. The entire thing is not exactly what the AI said, but the report is nonetheless crap.

Detecting AI crap

Reporters are often not totally fluent in English and sometimes their exact intentions are hard to understand at once and it might take a few back and fourths until things reveal themselves correctly – and that is of course totally fine and acceptable. Language and cultural barriers are real things.

Sometimes reporters use AIs or other tools to help them phrase themselves or translate what they want to say. As an aid to communicate better in a foreign language. I can’t find anything wrong with that. Even reporters who don’t master English can find and report security problems.

So: just the mere existence of a few give-away signs that parts of the text were generated by an AI or a similar tool is not an immediate red flag. It can still contain truths and be a valid issue. This is part of the reason why a well-formed crap report is harder and takes longer to discard.

Exhibit A: code changes are disclosed

In the fall of 2023, I alerted the community about a pending disclosure of CVE-2023-38545. A vulnerability we graded severity high.

The day before that issue was about to be published, a user submitted this report on Hackerone: Curl CVE-2023-38545 vulnerability code changes are disclosed on the internet

That sounds pretty bad and would have been a problem if it actually was true.

The report however reeks of typical AI style hallucinations: it mixes and matches facts and details from old security issues, creating and making up something new that has no connection with reality. The changes had not been disclosed on the Internet. The changes that actually had been disclosed were for previous, older, issues. Like intended.

In this particular report, the user helpfully told us that they used Bard to find this issue. Bard being a Google generative AI thing. It made it easier for us to realize the craziness, close the report and move on. As can be seen in the report log, we did have to not spend much time on researching this.

Exhibit B: Buffer Overflow Vulnerability

A more complicated issue, less obvious, done better but still suffering from hallucinations. Showing how the problem grows worse when the tool is better used and better integrated into the communication.

On the morning of December 28 2023, a user filed this report on Hackerone: Buffer Overflow Vulnerability in WebSocket Handling. It was morning in my time zone anyway.

Again this sounds pretty bad just based on the title. Since our WebSocket code is still experimental, and thus not covered by our bug bounty it helped me to still have a relaxed attitude when I started looking at this report. It was filed by a user I never saw before, but their “reputation” on Hackerone was decent – this was not their first security report.

The report was pretty neatly filed. It included details and was written in proper English. It also contained a proposed fix. It did not stand out as wrong or bad to me. It appeared as if this user had detected something bad and as if the user understood the issue enough to also come up with a solution. As far as security reports go, this looked better than the average first post.

In the report you can see my first template response informing the user their report had been received and that we will investigate the case. When that was posted, I did not yet know how complicated or easy the issue would be.

Nineteen minutes later I had looked at the code, not found any issue, read the code again and then again a third time. Where on earth is the buffer overflow the reporter says exists here? Then I posted the first question asking for clarification on where and how exactly this overflow would happen.

After repeated questions and numerous hallucinations I realized this was not a genuine problem and on the afternoon that same day I closed the issue as not applicable. There was no buffer overflow.

I don’t know for sure that this set of replies from the user was generated by an LLM but it has several signs of it.

Ban these reporters

On Hackerone there is no explicit “ban the reporter from further communication with our project” functionality. I would have used it if it existed. Researchers get their “reputation” lowered then we close an issue as not applicable, but that is a very small nudge when only done once in a single project.

I have requested better support for this from Hackerone. Update: this function exists, I just did not look at the right place for it…

Future

As these kinds of reports will become more common over time, I suspect we might learn how to trigger on generated-by-AI signals better and dismiss reports based on those. That will of course be unfortunate when the AI is used for appropriate tasks, such as translation or just language formulation help.

I am convinced there will pop up tools using AI for this purpose that actually work (better) in the future, at least part of the time, so I cannot and will not say that AI for finding security problems is necessarily always a bad idea.

I do however suspect that if you just add an ever so tiny (intelligent) human check to the mix, the use and outcome of any such tools will become so much better. I suspect that will be true for a long time into the future as well.

I have no doubts that people will keep trying to find shortcuts even in the future. I am sure they will keep trying to earn that quick reward money. Like for the email spammers, the cost of this ends up in the receiving end. The ease of use and wide access to powerful LLMs is just too tempting. I strongly suspect we will get more LLM generated rubbish in our Hackerone inboxes going forward.

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cURL and libcurl, Security

This busy-loop is not a security issue

One of the toughest jobs I have, is to assess if a reported security problem is indeed an actual security vulnerability or “just” a bug. Let me take you through a recent case to give you an insight…

Some background

curl is 24 years old and so far in our history we have registered 111 security vulnerabilities in curl. I’ve sided with the “security vulnerability” side in reported issues 111 times. I’ve taken the opposite stance many more times.

Over the last two years, we have received 129 reports about suspected security problems and less than 15% of them (17) were eventually deemed actual security vulnerabilities. In the other 112 cases, we ended up concluding that the report was not pointing out a curl security problem. In many of those 112 cases, it was far from easy to end up with that decision and in several instances the reporter disagreed with us. (But sure, in the majority of the cases we could fairly quickly conclude that the reports were completely bonkers.)

The reporter’s view

Many times, the reporter that reports a security bug over on Hackerone has spent a significant amount of time and effort to find it, research it, reproduce it and report it. The reporter thinks it is a security problem and there’s a promised not totally insignificant monetary reward for such problems. Not to mention that a found and reported vulnerability in curl might count as something of a feat and a “feather in the hat” for a security researcher. The reporter has an investment in this work and a strong desire to have their reported issue classified as a security vulnerability.

The project’s view

If the reported problem is a security problem then we must consider it as that and immediately work on fixing the issue to reduce the risk of users getting hurt, and to inform all users about the risk and ask them to upgrade or otherwise mitigate and take precautions against the risks.

Most reported security issues are not immediately obvious. At least not in my eyes. I usually need to object, discuss, question and massage the data for a while in order to land on how we should best view the issue. I’m a skeptic by nature and I need to be convinced before I accept it.

Labeling something a “security vulnerability” if it indeed is not, is rather hurting users and the entire community rather than helping it. We must not cry wolf for a problem that cannot hurt users or that in practical terms is impossible to occur. Or maybe it is a problem that users are already expected to deal with. Or a result of an explicit or implicit application choice rather than a mistake done by us.

But we must not ignore actual security problems!

This latest MQTT problem

On March 24, 2022 we got a new report filed over on hackerone with the title Denial of Service vulnerability in curl when parsing MQTT server response.

Here’s (roughly) what the issue is about:

  1. A bug in current libcurl makes it misbehave under certain conditions. When the MQTT connection gets closed mid message, libcurl refuses to acknowledge that and thinks the connection is still alive. Easily triggered by a malicious server.
  2. libcurl considers the connection readable non-stop
  3. Reading from the connection brings no more data
  4. Busy-looping in the event-loop. Goto 2

The loop stops only once it reaches the set timeout, the progress callback can stop it and the speed-limit options will stop it if the right conditions are met.

By default, none of those options are set for a transfer and therefore, by default this makes an endless busy-loop.

At the same time…

A transfer can always stall and take a very long time to complete. A server can basically always just stop delivering more data, making the transfer take an infinite amount of time to complete. Applications that have not set any options to stop such a transfer risk doing a transfer that never ends. An endless transfer.

Also: if libcurl makes a transfer over a really fast network, such as localhost or using a super fast local network, then it might also reach the same level of busy-loop due to never having to wait for data. Albeit for a limited amount of time – until the transfer is complete. This busy-loop is highly unlikely to actually starve out any important threads in a system.

Yes, a closed connection is a much “cheaper” attack from server’s point of view than maintaining a long-living connection, but the cost of the attack is not a factor here.

Where in this grey area do we land?

This is difficult one.

I can see the point of the reporter, but I can also see how this flaw will basically not hurt any existing curl user. Where is our responsibility here?

I ended up concluding that this issue not a security vulnerability. The reporter disagreed.

It is a terribly annoying bug for sure. But the only applications that are seriously affected by it, are the ones that already allow an endless transfer.

The bug-fix was instead submitted as a normal pull-request: PR 8644, targeted to be fixed and included in the pending curl 7.83.0 release.

We publicize the reports after the fact

We make all (non-rubbish) previously reported hackerone issues public, whether they ended up being a vulnerability or not. To give everyone involved time to object or redact sensitive details, the publication date is usually within a month after the issue was closed.

By making the reports public, we allow everyone interested enough the ability and chance to check out and follow past discussions and deliberations for going the directions we did. The idea is primarily to be completely open about the reported issues and how we classify them, to show that we are not hiding anything and it also provides a chance for us to get more feedback from the surrounding and from security people who might disagree with previous analyses.

Security is hard.

cURL and libcurl

curl joins the reborn IBB bug-bounty program

In April 2019 we launched the current curl bug-bounty program under the Hackerone umbrella and from my point of view it has been nothing but a raging success. Until today we’ve paid almost 17,000 USD in rewards and and the average payment amount has been increasing all the time.

The reward money in this program have been paid to security reporters sourced from our own funds. Funds that have been donated to the curl project by our generous curl sponsors.

Before that day in 2019, when this program started, we did a few attempts to lean on and piggy-back on other bug-bounty efforts, but that never worked good enough. It mostly made the process unpredictable, outside of our control and ability to influence them and they never paid researchers “proper”.

We even started this latest program in association with a known brand company (that I won’t name here) who promised to chip-in and contribute money to the rewards whenever they would affect one of their use cases – but that similarly just ended up an empty promise for something that apparently never could happen. It feels much more honest and straight forward not giving anyone such false expectations – so they’re no longer involved here.

The original Internet Bug-Bounty

Another “failed program” from the past, at least as far as bounties for curl issues go, was the Hackerone driven bounty program known as IBB. It was an umbrella project to offer bounties for security problems in a set of “internet programs” including curl. I won’t bore you with details why that didn’t work. I think they paid some small bounties to two or three curl related issues.

IBB reborn but different now

The experience from all previous attempts and programs we’ve tried for bounties says that we need to be in control of what reported issues that are considered security related problems and I think it is important that we reward all such issues, without discrimination or other conditions. If the issue is indeed a security problem, then we appreciate getting told about it and we reward the person who did the job, figured it out and told us.

Therefore, skepticism was the initial response I felt when I was briefed about the re-introduction, rebirth if you want, of the IBB program. We’ve been there, we tried that.

But after talking to the people involved, I was subsequently convinced that we should give this effort a chance. There are several reasons that made me think this time can be different, to our benefit. They include:

  1. The IBB program will pay the rewards from their funds, and they will do their own fund raising and “pester “big companies to help out, thus either entirely or mostly remove the need for us to fund the rewards or at least make our spending smaller. Or the rewards larger.
  2. The members of the curl security team will still work with reported issues the exact same way as before and our security team will remain the sole arbiters of what problems that are in-scope and what problems that are not for issues reported on curl. We’ve established a decent working method for that over the last two something years and I feel good about us sticking to this. The IBB program is mostly involved at the end of the process when the reward amount and payout are handled.
  3. We stick to mostly the same work-flow and site for reporting issues and communicating with reporters while the issues are in the initial non-disclosed state. Namely within the nicely working Hackerone issue tracker, which is designed and made specifically for this purpose.

Evaluation

We have not signed up for this new way of doing things for life. If it turns out that it is bad somehow for the curl project or for security researchers filing problems about curl, then we can always just backpedal back to the previous situation and continue as before.

This should be a fairly harmless test and change of process that should be an improvement for us as otherwise we won’t stick to it!

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