Tag Archives: cookies

httpstate cookie domain pains

Back in 2008, I wrote about when Mozilla started to publish their effort the “public suffixes list” and I was a bit skeptic.

Well, the problem with domains in cookies of course didn’t suddenly go away and today when we’re working in the httpstate working group in the IETF with documenting how cookies work, we need to somehow describe how user agents tend to work with these and how they should work with them. It’s really painful.

The problem in short, is that a site that is called ‘www.example.com’ is allowed to set a cookie for ‘example.com’ but not for ‘com’ alone. That’s somewhat easy to understand. It gets more complicated at once when we consider the UK where ‘www.example.co.uk’ is fine but it cannot be allowed to set a cookie for ‘co.uk’.

So how does a user agent know that co.uk is magic?

Firefox (and Chrome I believe) uses the suffixes list mentioned above and IE is claimed to have its own (not published) version and Opera is using a trick where it tries to check if the domain name resolves to an IP address or not. (Although Yngve says Opera will soon do online lookups against the suffix list as well.) But if you want to avoid those tricks, Adam Barth’s description on the http-state mailing list really is creepy.

For me, being a libcurl hacker, I can’t of course but to think about Adam’s words in his last sentence: “If a user agent doesn’t care about security, then it can skip the public suffix check”.

Well. Ehm. We do care about security in the curl project but we still (currently) skip the public suffix check. I know, it is a bit of a contradiction but I guess I’m just too stuck in my opinion that the public suffixes list is a terrible solution but then I can’t figure anything that will work better and offer the same level of “safety”.

I’m thinking perhaps we should give in. Or what should we do? And how should we in the httpstate group document that existing and new user agents should behave to be optimally compliant and secure?

(in case you do take notice of details: yes the mailing list is named http-state while the working group is called httpstate without a dash!)

HTTP cookies IETF working group

So finally (remember I mentioned this list when it was created back in January 2009) an IETF http-state working group was created, with the following description:

The HTTP State Management Mechanism (Cookies) was original created by Netscape Communications in their Netscape cookie specification, from which a formal specification followed (RFC 2109, RFC 2965). Due to years of implementation and extension, several ambiguities have become evident, impairing interoperability and the ability to easily implement and use HTTP State Management Mechanism.

I’m on the list from the start and I hope to be able to contribute some of my cookie experiences and knowledge to aid the document to actually end up with something useful. The ambition, while it was “toned down” somewhat since the initial posts of the mailing lists, is still fairly high I would claim:

The working group will refine RFC2965 to:

  • Incorporate errata and updates
  • Clarify conformance requirements
  • Remove known ambiguities where they affect interoperability
  • Clarify existing methods of extensibility
  • Remove or deprecate those features that are not widely implemented and also unduly affect interoperability
  • Add features that are already widely implemented or have a critical mass of support
  • Where necessary, add implementation advice
  • Document the security properties of HTTP State Management Mechanism and its associated mechanisms for common applications

In doing so, it should consider:

  • Implementer experience
  • Demonstrated use of HTTP State Management Mechanism
  • Impact on existing implementations and deployments
  • Ability to achieve broad implementation.
  • Ability to address broader use cases than may be contemplated by the original authors.

The Working Group’s specification deliverables are:

  • A document that is suitable to supersede RFC 2965
  • A document cataloging the security properties of HTTP State Management Mechanism

I think this is a scope that is manageable enough to actually have a chance to succeed and its planning is quite similar to that of the IETF httpbis group. Still, RFC2965 lists a huge pile of stuff that has never been implemented by anyone and even though it was a while since I did read that spec I also expect it to lack several things existing cookie parsers and senders already use. The notorious IE httpOnly is an example I can think of right now.

IETF http-state group created

Over at the IETF another group was just created named http-state (with an associated mailing list) with the specific goal:

Ultimately, the purpose of this group is to create an updated HTTP State Management Mechanism RFC (aka cookies) that will supersede the Netscape spec, RFCs 2109, 2964, 2965 then add in real-world usage (e.g. HTTPOnly), and possibly add in additional features and possibly merge in draft-broyer-http-cookie-auth-00.txt and draft-pettersen-cookie-v2-03.txt.

I’ve joined the list and I hope to follow and participate in this, as I believe the current state of HTTP cookies is a rather sorry mess and the netscape spec is still what closest describes how cookies work in the wild. Of course I’ll do it with my libcurl experience in my luggage.

While it perhaps would be cool to join the group in more formal way, there’s no way for me to participate in that IETF meeting in San Francisco in March.

public suffixes list

I noticed the new site publicsuffix.org that has been setup by the mozilla organization in an attempt to list public suffixes for all TLDs in the world, to basically know how to prevent sites from setting cookies that would span over just about all sites under that “public suffix”.

While I can see what drives this effort and since we have the same underlying problem in curl as well, I have sympathy for the effort. Still, I dread “having to” import and support this entire list in curl only to be able to better work like the browsers in the cookie department. Also, it feels like a cat and mouse race where the list may never be complete anyway. It is doomed to lack entries, or in the worst case list “public suffixes” that aren’t any such public suffixes anymore and thus it’ll prevent sites using that suffix to properly use cookies…

There’s no word on the site if IE or Opera etc are going to join this effort.

Update: there are several people expressing doubts about the virtues of this idea. Like Patrik Fältström on DNSOP.